Advice needed!

[melannen]

Comm, I have a problem.

You see, I want to grow vegetables. But my yard is basically a forest understory - there's no place that gets more than 3-4 hours of sun on a good day. I went to an ag fair a few weeks ago and asked everybody there what to do for vegetable gardening in the shade, and I got great advice like "cut down some trees" or "plant lettuce in a wheelbarrow and wheel it around to follow the sun" or "go ask those people over there."

Now, as tempted I am to make little robotic light-seeking raised beds, I'd rather just find some advice on vegetable gardening in the shade, but all the resources I can find for shade gardening in zone 7 (where I am) assumes you're growing nothing but ornamentals. Isn't there somebody who has already figured out how to grow nice edible vegetables under trees in a temperate climate?

It's not like my yard has any shortage of edible plants already growing in it. We have


raspberry (Rubus strigosis)



pokeweed (Phytotacca americana)



oak (Quercus phellos in the picture, but we have white, red, and pin oak, too)



mulberry (Moris rubra, probably hybridized with invasives)



wild grape (Vitis sp.)



dandelion (Taraxacum officinale)



chokecherry (prunus sp.)



black walnut (Juglans nigra)



common violets (Viola sororia) (with yellow woodsorrel, Oxalis stricta)



maple (Acer saccharum in the picture, but we have red and silver maple too)



Indian strawberry (Potentilla indica), growing with English ivy Hedera helix, which is not edible



and plantain (Plantago major) (with Carolina cranesbill Geranium carolinianum, not edible)


already growing in abundance, plus a pecan tree and wild mint and wild onions and some sort of volunteer rosebushes and usually some edible mushrooms at some point, and that's just the ones I can ID offhand in a quick turn around the yard in May--

But I'd kind of like to grow something that has a slightly higher calories-to-prep-time ratio than most of the wild edibles do. Anyone have any recommendations for growing vegetables under a forest?

Comments

[rydra_wong]

I can rec wild strawberries and wild garlic (ramsons); both cope with shade fine, and the wild garlic seems to thrive on complete neglect too.

It might also be worth asking in permaculture, since building an "edible landscape" that integrates trees is a key permacultural approach.

As a random piece of data: you're going to have to watch how closely you plant things to the black walnut -- it secretes a chemical into the soil that can stop various other plants from growing.

[melannen]

The black walnut was here before we were :D The pokeweed and violets don't seem to mind it, nor various shrubs that have grown under it over the years or other turf weeds and mosses (nor do the vinca or the English ivy that were planted against my advice, nor the wild grape and poison ivy we have to keep trying to keep out.) It mostly seems to suppress other trees, which makes sense (though there's still oak and cherry seedlings coming up right under it. Perhaps it is just a very laid-back walnut.)

I doubt I'll be doing much gardening under it anyway though, because a) roots! and b) the thought of having to rake bushels of walnuts out of any sort of intensive garden already make me tired.

We've got 'wild garlic' (I think Allium vineale) growing in a few places in the yard, and I have used them as a food plant, but they don't thrive there, seeming to prefer (shock!) more sun, so I've wondered about the more domenticated types. I've seen various onion/garlic-y plants recommended for shade growing & might try ramps/ramsons - they're at least native, unlike the garlic we've go now, although in terms of wild-to-domestic they're only a few steps up from what we've got...

What plant specifically do you mean by "wild strawberries"? I found there are enough plants going by that common name that I'm never sure which one people are talking about. The 'wild strawberry' we've got does seem to thrive but has an only slightly edible fruit.

permaculture sounds like a great place to look! Although I already went through a book on perennial vegetables and pretty much all the shade-friendly plants it recommended for my zone is stuff that's already growing volunteer (like onion and wild strawberry and poke), except Indian potato, which I've been wanting to introduce anyway.

[rydra_wong]

We've got 'wild garlic' (I think Allium vineale)

Ah, I meant allium ursinum -- different plant (I think this may be a US/UK terminology difference). And the strawberries would be Alpine strawberries (fragaria vesca).

[thistleburr]

A lot of veggies need tons of sun, but not all do. I suggest trying peas, beans, and salad-type greens (even some domestic sorrel since you already have sorrel growing). You might be able to grow radishes or beets or something else similar too. Zone 7 is a pretty hot place, so a lot of vegetables would probably actually like a little shade. I would just avoid tomatoes, melons, peppers, and sunflowers.

Good luck :)

[melannen]

Ooh, beans! I would love to grow beans/peas, and I seem to remember the ones we brought home from third grade science doing okay, but the books are very contradictory about how much sun various beans need. (Also the yard was sunnier when I was in third grade...)

I'm also seriously considering trying to steal some groundnut, which is pea family and native, and coaxing it to replace some of the English ivy.

..It is weird to think of zone 7 as being pretty hot, since we have a fairly long frost period! Though we're really at the most northerly tip of zone 7 by courtesy of being near water. And a lot of the references I've looked in say "part/full shade only in zone 6 and below" for all the fun plants, sigh...

[brownbetty]

One thing you might find useful with beans is if you grow climbing beans, they can find sun other plants can't access. Scarlet runners are quite hardy, vigorous, delicious, and if you don't pick them to eat tender, you can let them dry and boil 'em up like a tastier, more tender, kidney bean.

Belated thought

[rydra_wong]

You could exploit the really shady bits by buying lots of mushroom logs, maybe?

Re: Belated thought

[melannen]

Mushrooms has always been a "maybe someday" sort of idea, but... maybe someday? (If I did I'd probably try growing it on a home-made matrix. Someone I know is planning to try using shredded junk mail...) I'd also be afraid of our questionable wild mushrooms mixing in, tbh, because I am less than confident in fungi IDs. Have you grown mushrooms outdoors? How hard is it?

Re: Belated thought

[rydra_wong]

Alas, I have not tried outdoors (or indoors either, for that matter). It's on my "maybe someday" list too. *g*

[redsnake05]

I know this is a balcony/courtyard solution, but I was thinking of trying it in my garden this coming summer for cherry tomatoes (I hate staking) or strawberries, with some calendula, basil and parsley or nasturiums in the top. Or something.



Also, I have succesfully grown zuchinni under fruit trees, in a big pile of old compost and grass clippings off to the side. It didn't get much sun, and didn't fruit spectacularly, but it was enough for me to eat. Oh, and things like spinach that bolt when its too hot. They might appreciate the shade.

[melannen]

Ooh, that looks awesome.

I tried to do zucchinni once and got nothin' (which no-one I talked to could believe) but it's possible that was a combination of old seed and August drought as well as shade. I would love to grow a moderate amount of squash, though. (We've had watermelon and pumpkin come up spontaneously from compost, but it's never fruited; that might be because of being seeds from commercial fruit though.)

some ideas...

[terezan_vortex]

i don't have much personal experience with that much shade, but remembered reading about this collection:

Shady Garden Collection
Most vegetable crops like sunshine, but we don’t all have perfect conditions to work with. We’ve gathered a selection of vegetables, plus one herb, one edible flower, and one berry, that will survive some shade and still give a worthwhile result. Also useful for coastal and cool-climate gardeners. Info sheet included. Contains one packet each Asian greens, chard, runner beans, kale, spinach, lettuce, chives, radish, sorrel, peas, nasturtiums, chervil and currant. 13 pkts.

from http://www.bountifulgardens.org/prodinfo.asp?number=LSH-6755

Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith]

Well, I don't do much with vegetables; I focus on fruit. Most caneberries (raspberries, blackberries, etc.) grow fine in part shade. So do wild strawberries and some domesticated varieties.

Cool-season vegetables tend to die in direct summer sun, but can be grown with some protection. So, you might try lettuce or fast-growing bush peas in summer. Hmm, and Native American climbing beans -- those are designed to handle some shade and competition because they were traditionally grown with Corn and Squash.

Beyond that, I recommend looking at heirloom varieties if you want to try something like tomatoes. There are thousands of cultivars; someone has probably developed a few that need less sun.

Which brings us to plain old biology. You could simply plant whatever open-pollinated varieties of vegetables seem sorta close to what you want. Coddle them. Save the seeds from any that fruit. Later on, sample the veggies and save seed from the ones that taste better and still grow well. Repeat for a number of generations and eventually you should get something adapted better to shade.

[facetofcathy]

I was looking for something else entirely and found this article: Best Vegetables to Grow in the Shade which gives some advice on how to grow, not just what to grow.

It also links to another page with a handy list of what works and how much sun it needs.

I can attest to some herbs doing well in shady spots--chives, anything in the mint family and oregano.